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Hey, Epic and id are both stealing their character ideas from Rise of the Triad damn it! We had male and female characters way back in 1994. ;) :)

The fact is that *all* developers copy good ideas from other games, both intentionally and unintentionally. If you're a developer that talks about your game's key ideas on the net, then you'd better expect that other developers will see these ideas and consider using the good ones--we certainly do (see good ideas and use them, if appropriate).

It's unfortunate for Epic and the Unreal team that their game has taken so long to come out. This has dwindled it's technology advantage, and is obviously causing some misplaced ill-feelings toward competing developers.

It also seems like a unfortunate coincidence that Quake 2 has *very* similar characters to those in Unreal. I know that here we try to make sure we don't copy a competitor's game so closely in key areas like this because in the end it hurts both games due to lack of differentiation. I'm sure id didn't do this on purpose and probably had no idea that Unreal had the very same characters (bald male and female with ponytail).

In any case, to whoever gets their game out first will go the spoils.

7/25/97
Just to let you all know, I received an apology from a representative of Epic games addressed to id Software and an apology from Myscha as well. In turn I apologized as well for blowing up and unloading both barrels on poor Myscha and Unreal. I really do want us all to get along (sniff). Please don't stop liking me 'cause I ain't professional in my blasting (choke) I couldn't bear it (sniff).

******************
7/25/97
Blue is cool. Blues News is fucking cool. Blue is a valuable part of the Quake community. Please get off my back about my jibe on Blue. I've written him and explained why I said what I did and if you are interested I can forward that e-mail to you. All of my comments were aimed at one person, I apologize for the friendly fire.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Looks like I stirred up a BUNCH of angry Bees!! Of course as moronic as the entire thing sounds there certainly isn't any serious anger here.

It is, however my initial reaction to the entire situation.

We're all professionals here and although my opinions stated in my .plan file are more along the lines of "What I was thinking at the moment" I would hope that American and Disruptor and whoever else felt annoyed by these grain of salt statements understands that they are my personal thoughts, and not those of EPIC or GT Interactive or your next door neighboor's dog.

We all have incredible titles that we are all putting our every waking hour into completing. So sometimes when somone makes an observation we tend to take it a little to close to heart.

Don't. That's not the intent or the result. You're responding in such a serious fashion as if I am attacking you and your company personally.

Of course not-just making observations.

So American and Tim Willits I apologize for the misunderstanding- a simple :) (smiley) would have help to convey the actual tone better.



Previous bee stirring opinions.

First off I'd like to ask Blue why he posted that fucking garbage "War of Words" spiel by Mooschie (which BTW means "Pussy" or "Snatch" or "Vagina" in German). I know you're a Storm Trooper and all, but that bullshit should never have seen electronic "print"

As far as the list goes let me explain a few things:
1. I have never seen Unreal except for the unbelievably BAD ads that continue to pop up in the magazines. I have no clue what their game is about. I have no interest in their product because it is complete CRAP from level design down to every pixel of every texture on every face of every model connected by every vertex stored in memory on any of their amateur, weak-ass, ill-informed creative "staff"'s machines.
2. We have intended since November of last year to include a female player character in Q2 (Uh, does the Crackwhore ring any bells, Mooschie?)
3. The ponytail was my idea and is strictly a visual cue to help identify the character as a woman. Plus it will look cool from behind as it swishes around, or would you prefer that I make the male character's penis swing elephantine from his torso? Bet you'd like that Mooschie.
4. The character is only bald right now and could change in the future. I got the idea for baldness based on a HUGE bald guy down the street from my house who was doing his lawn the other day and I felt it made the guy look REALLY mean. Where'd you get your idea for a bald guy? Looking at that pencil stub you milk every time you go to the John?
5. There are no starships in the game. There are no ships that crash into the planet other than an occasional fighter if it's shot down. Get your facts straight, Moron. My ships stay in space where they belong.

You've just been bumped to the top of the list, Dude. I am so thoroughly going to enjoy giving you a harsh, final and brutal REALITY check this Christmas. UNREALIZED will be so completely and totally crushed by Q2 your lamentations will be music to my ears.
Xxxooo

>1. A female player--Like UNREAL
>2. A ponytail on the female player-LIKE UNREAL
>3. A male Player-Like UNREAL
>4. (of course their male player is bald too)

Uh, ok. These are the MOST moronic things I have ever seen anyone accuse us of stealing from their game design. I guess that in order to keep from stepping on this guys toes we should portray the character as a male cross-dresser, or a eunuch? Are those original enough for you?

We stole the ponytail? And baldness? Haha.
Damn you Captain Picard! You bald bastard. You're stealing ideas from Epic... how dare you! I think the guys at Epic should start suing everyone that puts a bald character into their work from now on... I mean, jeeze... they came up with this great idea... bald guys. They should trademark it and make all bald people stamp EpicBald(tm) on their heads.

btw: we came up with this great idea for the chick... she's going to have tits. Don't steal that from us guys. We thought of it first.

>5. Game takes place after crashing your starship.

Oh My God. You guys thought of this too?! I mean, I thought that we were stealing this from the countless other people who have done it before you were even BORN. Is it just me or have people been crashing starships and encountering problems on alien worlds since before Captain James T. Kirk was in diapers or what?

Next thing you know Epic will accuse us of stealing the idea of putting arms and legs on our players. Everyone will have to start using a very hairy, quadrapalegic, wheelchair driving, crossdressing, non-starship crashing, eunuch as the main character in their game. Damn.

Whew, been awhile, sorry, I'm still recovering from QuakeCon, but I just *HAD* to update when I saw the plan update from one of the Unreal team guys...

*DISCLAIMER: I don't know the Epic guys well, and I was impressed with Unreal at E3... until I saw Q2, after which Unreal paled in comparison... But this post from myscha kinda sparked me off, so it's a bit harsh... I don't like attacks on id. :)*


> "Back in the days of Doom 1 and Doom2 I always imagine the creators
> these incredible games as creative ground-breaking game designers."

I must admit, this co-incides with my feelings exactly... only, now, I know them very well on a personal level... and I can say they are far more than just ground-breaking... they are earth-shattering, genre-creating game designers.

> "Over the past few months, I have noticed a lack of individual and company
> based creativity"

It's amazing to me that someone working on a Quake-killer which still hasn't shipped, and paled in comparison to Quake II at E3 can actually say this...

> "I base this worrysome conjecture on the recent announcements that:
>
> QUAKE 2 will have
>
> 1. A female player--Like UNREAL
> 2. A ponytail on the female player-LIKE UNREAL
> 3. A male Player-Like UNREAL
> 4. (of course their male player is bald too)
> 5. Game takes place after crashing your starship."

1. Does this mean Tomb Raider also copied Unreal? Oh heavens, say it isn't so!! Shame on you, Eidos.
2. Do you mean to say that female humans don't wear their hair in pony-tails occasionally? Is this something special and unique to Unreal?
3. So, let me get this right... you're surprised that Q2 has a female player as well as being surprised that it has a male player? Which sort of player would you suggest as a replacement, then? Interesting, but I seem to recall that a few of id's other games also sport a male character as a player... I could be wrong, please correct me if so.
4. Again, balding men don't exist? An Unreal exclusive?
5. Well, since I seriously doubt Unreal was begun years ago when such games as Space Quest (and hundreds of others, this one was just handy and happens to be a favorite of mine) were born, I'm not quite sure argument #5 is all that original either....

As a good friend of mine said: I think the only thing that Quake II will have in similarity to Unreal...is that people will be saying "Man...this is *unreal*" I have to concur.

> "It's a good thing they are using hollow metal headed enemies, that way
> our Artificially Intelligent Organic monsters and enemies will at least
> not appear as blatantly RIPPED_OFF..."

I just have to laugh. It's been what, 2 years? since Epic and the Unreal team have been insisting their AI is incredibly realistic? Products speak louder than words....

As another friend of mine said, "Unreal is a perfect name for the game... Un-real, Un-released, Un-finished, and Un-fast."

> "Please ID software do something we didn't do or model 12 months ago. :)"

Please Epic, release a game so we can see what you've been doing for the last 12 months. Oh, and incidentally, it's "id Software."

> "No offense-but these coincidences ruined my nap. "

Perhaps less napping and more game designing will actually get a product on the shelves? Hmmm, I had wondered why Unreal slowed down to somewhere near 5 fps at E3 when you pulled the trigger... Was it due to the ENF? (Excessive Napping Factor)

I'm sorry, but you stepped up to the plate with the wrong company, about the wrong game, and with aboslutely no ammo. Without a game out, or even a comparable public display, how can you fire such salvos?

Didn't Epic publicly call Unreal a Quake-killer? Quake's been out for more than a year, and I've seen nothing yet that compares. Perhaps Unreal is a Quake II killer? It sure didn't look that way.

Oh, wait, I seem to remember some posts more than a year ago about how the Unreal team wanted to wait until Quake shipped to release, so id couldn't steal or implement some of your cool ideas? Perhaps you're doing the same thing with Quake II?

Go back to sleep.

In response to Myscha's .planfile update (go check www.quake2.com)...

Is it just me, or did he stick a big peice of paper on his ass saying "kick me" ? I don't think he's in any position to speak of ripping other people off.

I'll leave it at that.

---

Big thanks to Tarok for helping to get monolith.3DNet.net connected to the network. It's also been added to the round-robbin lookup as part of irc.3Dnet.net. We hope to have another two servers connected by the end of next week.

Back in the days of Doom 1 and Doom2 I always imagine the creators these incredible games as creative ground-breaking game designers.

Over the past few months, I have noticed a lack of individual and company based creativity
.
I base this worrysome conjecture on the recent announcements that:

QUAKE 2 will have

1. A female player--Like UNREAL
2. A ponytail on the female player-LIKE UNREAL
3. A male Player-Like UNREAL
4. (of course their male player is bald too)
5. Game takes place after crashing your starship.


It's a good thing they are using hollow metal headed enemies, that way our Artificially Intelligent Organic monsters and enemies will at least appear not as blatantly RIPPED_OFF...

Please ID software do something we didn't do or model 12 months ago. :)

No offense-but these coincidences ruined my nap.

Truthfully... in the world of 3d games, there are going to be ideas copied all over.

for example, no matter how original a weapon is these days in a 3dgame, it'll be relatable to some weapon done before... i mean, even unreal, it has a rocket launcher (done so many times albeit with diff. names sometimes), it has an automag (pistol you mean?) etc. etc.

Likewise, unreal may have decided on a female player... but future 3d games are bound to have female and male players available anyways, just because unreal has a female and a male doesn't mean that no other 3d game is allowed to do that... that's bound to become standard in 3d games anyways.

I could care less about hair.

As far as the story goes.. I don't know what to tell you but not many 3dgames are *heavily* affected actionwise by what the story really is..... some, like hexen, are.

Also... you must remember that both Quake 2 and Unreal are promising things but even so... until Unreal is out and has said features in it in the final..... its "subject to change"

even quake 2 is "subject to change" as of now.

I'm not trying to bitch you out... just give you my perspective on your plan update..... I followed team tnt (in fact had friends in it) and have observed your work for some time now.

Don't worry!!
Everyone's opinion is worth hearing.

I was bummed about the similarities between Quake choosing such identical conceptual models as the ones we developed a year ago.. Even so, bith games will be incredible and unique--despite minor similarities..

The whole thing just ruined my nap I was taking... When you only sleep 4 hours every 36 it makes a siberian very grumpy :)

Thanks for your note..

July 24, 1997
------------------

Woo-hoo! Software transparency works! There's nothing magical to implementing transparency (that worked weeks ago), it was trying to rework someone else's code to do what we wanted. In hindsight it would have made more sense for me just to rewrite the code from scratch, but the existing code was close enough to what we wanted that I was reluctant to give up on it without giving it a try.

What happened was that the existing sprite rasterizer was basically a degenerate case of a polygon rasterizer, at least in theory. Since it hadn't been used as a polygon rasterizer yet there was "minor" cleanup work that needed to be done. That "minor" cleanup consumed about two weeks of my time, most of which was spent being frustrated and pissed and demoralized beyond belief (and a large reason I had nothing to say in my .plans).

However, I still think that it was good for me to do, since I'm pretty damn familiar with how the sprite and polygon code works now. Not only that but I managed to rip out a lot of code in the process and really clean up some of the preexisting code.

So we now have translucent particles, sprites, alias models, and BSP surfaces (windows). Oh, and transparent water works too (although I don't have the turbulence stuff implemented yet).

I'm feeling pretty happy these days. Unfortunately, I'm also feeling pretty guilty that it took so long, so I'm probably not going to the drag strip with everyone else tomorrow. I want to get turbulence working soon, and I still have a laundry list of things to fix.

John got the sky box working on his own, since it would have taken me 10x the time it took for him to do it, and the knowledge I would have gained would have been minimal.

But basically at this point the GL and software renderers are basically at parity. The software renderer is quite slow right now, but I'll be optimizing the code pretty soon.

3DNet seems to be up and running quite well technically. Stomped has expressed an interest in attaching to the network, and I'm in the final stages of getting Monolith's server connected (in what little spare time I have...)

In the next week or so, we'll begin accepting channel registrations. It should only take me a little under an hour to hack "bot" (3DNet's serverbot) to allow registered users to use him for their particular channel.

One thing that cannot be registered are major game channels (at this time anyway). Channels like #hexen2, #quake, #sin etc... should be left opless. We've found that opless channels really cut out alot of bullshit and that channel participants can just relax and chat.

There are usually oppers online at any given time of the day (check #quake, #qspy, or #underworld) should anyone do something truly lame.

3DNet is a bot friendly network and registration of a channel will require you to run your own bot. Registration simply means, that up to three people per channel will have access to "bot" should they need to get ops.

Again, if you are interested in linking with the network, and are in the computer games industry, drop us a line;

IRC : irc.3dnet.net #underworld
Mail: 3DNet@underworld.idsoftware.com

---

Ok, now that my sister, Spazz, has left here to go back to Toronto, maybe Brian can get some work done...

/me runs

In all seriousness, things have sort of been unproductive over the last few days with QuakeCon, my sister visiting from Toronto, and magazine people coming in to do articles on Quake II.

QuakeCon was, uhh, big. I didn't hang out much due to work and prior engagements, but I did hang out with Avatar, H2H, Polish, Indub, and a few more people from EFNet #quake (that I didn't recognize) in a hotel room Saturday night, sucked back a Corona, and watched Avatar smack the shit out of people in DOOM II.

Oh well, life is now back to normal, and back into "crunch mode" I go trying to get my part for Quake II done.

PS: As you've probably heard by now, Brandon "KillMe" James has officially been hired on as a designer. He really kicks ass and I'm sure you'll like his work.

My 3rd level *this month* is coming along nicely. Right now I am working on a factory level that contains tons of complex machinery, not to mention some pretty cool architecture. This map has close to 2500 brushes in it already... and I've only been working on it for about 4 days. I guess these long arms help create maps quickly!